Once again, Rebecca has written an article for the blog. Here she talks about justice from the perspective of someone on the wrong side of injustice.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
I read this one to Vicki, my Psychologist, and she said, “How are you going to do that?”
I said, “I’ve already been doing it since I got here.”
Learning and then finally accepting that Justice doesn’t really exist is a very difficult lesson. Even after all of the lies I was told by authorities here, after the outright refusal to reveal, then honor my Human Rights under the Mexican Constitution, and International Laws, after deliberate attempts were made to withhold information from me which would allow me the tools I desperately needed in order to form an adequate defense, after all of these psychological atrocities, the day of my hearing arrived and my mental picture of Justice remained unchanged as I sat in front of dozens of Canadian Reporters, 2 representatives of my American Consulate, my sister, my attorney, my co-accused Brenda Martin, presenting my arguments against the conclusions made by the prosecution.
My mind couldn’t process the scene that was unfolding, being played out. I thought, “Why doesn’t the Judge seem interested in what I am presenting and saying? Why does he take these chronological charts and evidence charts from me and not even glance at them before tossing them to one side? How naive I was to think that this “Hearing” was anything more than going through the motions. I resolved to present my charts and the 14 pages of text, which were all being translated into the ever growing voluminous tomes of paper accumulated in this case. If for no other reason than to preserve my right to do so. Clearly the Judge and oddly enough, Brenda Martin were sending impatient messages for me to conclude my futile attempts to – as I mistakenly thought – to adequately defend myself.
But, where did I go wrong in my thinking? By believing in the programmed image of what Justice looks like. Remember the scales of Justice? How they weigh out the evidence with impartiality. I believed that these hard-wired images, always unchangeably true for me, were true for the Judge who had the responsibility to view the case impartially.
This false belief turned into a low blow, an implosion of my belief system surrounding Justice. But, why would the Judge work so hard to twist the evidence so he could hand down a minimum sentence on both charges?
-- Proclaiming that I confessed! This can’t be legal – using a translated declaration (made as a witness not a suspect). Nowhere is there a confirmation by me that I was making a ‘confession’. Isn’t that part of what is required in a confession – that the party confessing knows they are confessing? According to the translated Sentencing Document, inferring that I was involved. According to the word infer used many times in the Conclusions, this is to take a known fact and extrapolate an unknown fact out of it. In other words --- guessing.
-- Guilt by association. Because Alyn Waage opened bank accounts all over the world and bought high end Real Estate all over Mexico, I am said to be guilty of doing this – also because he made wire transfers all over the world they say I am guilty of this too. If he shot someone while he was out of the country – using this logic then I would be guilty of pulling the trigger?
-- They don’t need to prove a crime was committed to apply the Organized Crime charge. “1984” – Where are the ‘thought Police’, because to be guilty of Organized Crime in this country (Mexico) you only have to discuss doing something illegal with 2 other persons (which I did not do) . Alyn Waage’s son’s confession puts the formation of this business at a date before I even knew them, and Cary Waage’s confession spells out the members of the organization and he doesn’t list me as one of them. Also, it should be noted that Cary Waage was asked if he understood that he was making a confession and if he understood what he was saying was a confession. No one ever asked me this question! They asked him if he accepted responsibility for this crime. He said, “yes”. No one asked me that question here in Mexico or in the US.
-- Not needing to prove what it was I did for Alyn Waage. Because they refused to accept my explanation of what my job was, they cited a rule, that they don’t have to prove the individual’s role in the organization because to have to do that would break down their ability to prosecute this type of crime!
There is a mountain of deceptive twists, errors, omissions and outright lies written into the Sentencing Document. My Public Defender (attorney) stated that what the Judge of the 7th District Court has done is nothing less than ‘Abuse of Power’.
Human beings are like computers. We are all programmed that certain things- such as in this example, Justice- are implemented using fair and unbiased reasoning in the same way. This has not been my experience and the aftermath of this deception sent me into a shaky dissolution of questioning what it is that I know for sure. What I know for sure now, is that I don’t know anything for sure. This is one example of stripping away false beliefs. This is not a bad thing, although it is a difficult thing to understand.
THE DISSOLUTION OF JUSTICE
I believe that modifying my programmed image of Justice will be a process. I am not about to accept this corrupt version to take the place of True Justice. I only have to recognize that it does exist and to be aware of its existence, yet strive to resurrect the True image of Justice whenever I am in a position to do so.
Poem:
THE DISSOLUTION OF JUSTICE
While justice was away
On holiday
Her evil counterparts
Deception, bias and corruption
Came to stay
Condemn, condemn, condemn we say
For there really isn’t any other way
To keep your status and high pay
To avoid your own condemnation anyway.
But when Justice returned one day
The locks were changed, she couldn’t stay
Slowly, sadly she turned away
Lifted her arms began to pray
“God lift the burden of dissolution
From my shoulders, awaken the
Sleeping conscience of the deceived
And comfort the victims with
Peace, long suffering and patience”
Friday, February 13, 2009
Tuesday, February 10, 2009
FOR THE BLOG FROM REBECCA ROTH
February 10, 2009
TO ALL FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS:
The past few months have been a period of hopeful waiting beginning with the assignment of the Magistrate Parra-Parra on April 22nd, the date I was sentenced and I appealed the sentence. Next, the visit to her by my sister Barbara and friend Lucy, in which they were told by the Magistrate that she was reviewing my case. LIE
Also, the US Consulate sent a letter during this time and was told by this magistrate that she was reviewing my case with “a good eye” meaning thoroughly. LIE
Then on October 3rd, the court notifier and court translator came to let me know that my case had been sent along with another 24 cases to the State of Guanajuato, the equivalent of sending a case from Washington State (Olympia) to Salem, Oregon. The reason I was told that it had been sent was because of an agreement between the Mexican states of Jalisco and Guanajuato to help each other out when they were overburdened with work. My Public Defender (attorney) Mario Lamas Guzman assured me that he thought this was a good thing and that it would speed up the process.
I really didn’t know what to think since I had already been told that the 1st magistrate was very hard working was not afraid to make decisions and couldn’t be pressured into doing something by the Ministerio Publico (the enemy).
Now I was being told that this new magistrate was removed from the politics in play here in Jalisco and that he would be left in peace by all parties so that he could accomplish his work quicker and without the bias we had seen with the 1st Judge. Also, I was told that 4-5 cases were coming back per week and the results and been very positive since they (the tribunal in Guanajuato) were using a new criteria.
In November, my sister Barbara and friend Lucy got in the car and went to Guanajuato (a six hour drive) to see the new Judge. They received a lukewarm reception and were granted a whole 15 minutes in which they learned that after 4 weeks in his possession my case was still on the bottom of his other cases to review (he had been told my case was difficult) and that he would do his best to review it before the end of the year. LIE
On New Year’s Eve I spoke to my sister and ex-husband telling them jokingly that the magistrate only had about 7 hours left to render a decision. At 7 PM I was called to the Locutoria – which is the Plexiglas room where attorneys and other visitors come to communicate or deliver notifications. I put on my putty colored prison dress and the adrenalin was pumping…Could I be going free on New Year’s Eve 2008? Nervous tears literally sprung from my eyes as a mixture of emotions, anticipation, hope and dread came upon me. Esmeralda and Leah waited by the cell block door as I walked out into the chilly night.
It turned out to be my dedicated lawyer, a Public Defender whose colleagues belittle him for working so hard and caring so much. His wife and family don’t understand why he works such long hours either. He came to tell me that now, the earliest we would hear would be January 15th, as that is about the time the magistrates actually begin working again. That night I told my attorney to explain to his wife and children, that only by the work of dedicated men like him would Justice ever have any hope of re-entering into this sick decaying system. And that they are suffering by his absence so that by his efforts and God’s protection, the rampant injustice that is a daily reality in this country will never make it to their doorstep.
Once again, I was appeased to wait till the 15th. However, I began to feel anxiety building on the 13th, 14th, 15th, etc. Finally I went to my psychologist for some Flower Drops she puts in water for depression and anxiety. That week I had an Asthma crisis which landed me into the clinic here early one morning. I was unable to breathe and my roommates covered me in blankets and took me to the clinic, where a Supervising guard asked them why they brought me there as there was no doctor. Upon hearing this, I willed myself to calm down. I was unable to speak. I’m not sure how much time passed when the Pediatrician arrived and injected me with something and gave me a nebulizer treatment. They were unable to locate my mask and nebulizer but I was grateful to be breathing again. Over the next four days after asking all personnel, I learned that not only my nebulizer and mask are gone, but the other three as well. (Many months previously a Rotarian from Puerto Vallarta had brought 5 new nebulizers and masks to donate to the prison with the provision that one set would be solely for my use.)
Once again I was sharing a dirty mask with all Asthma sufferers. Thank God I am becoming healthier every day.
My sister received an email from someone in Puerto Vallarta who is supposed to know what is going on with my case. This person told us months ago that I would be leaving. They didn’t know when…but that I would be leaving. Now this email stated by the end of January. You guessed it, January 31st has come and gone.
Last Friday Lucy was here and told me she’d talked to my attorney about my illness and growing anxiety. He had promised her that he would come to see me. Yesterday the US Consulate came for their 90 day visit (early they said) due to the email my sister sent regarding the Asthma Crisis and the missing donated nebulizers.
They brought me used: The New Yorker, The Economist, a Novel, 3 bras, 2 socks, 1 pair of Wilson tennis shoes, hotel and spa sized soaps, shampoo and conditioner.
I received the same party line of non-interference from the new American Citizen Services “suit” and we went through the same scenario. It brought to mind (appropriately due to the current dates FEBRUARY 2 IS GROUND HOG DAY in which Bill Murray (ME) continues to relive the same day over and over again. Only in my case it’s the endless revolving bureaucrats who represent the USA in Mexico. I relive these every 90 day meetings with new faces spouting the same worn out lines, like in “Ground Hog Day.” How can I cope?
In the afternoon I was called to the Locutorio and once again…This time it was my attorney wondering why I am so anxious and depressed. I said, “I’ve been waiting since April 22, 2008 for my Appeal. He said “yes”, but remember the first Magistrate didn’t do anything for four months! I said, “It doesn’t look like the second one is doing anything either.” I asked him if he really believed that this magistrate was going to do his job and clear me of these charges? He said, “I must believe it and you must believe it too.”
Barbara reassures me by telling me the more injustice that occurs; the greater the final outcome is going to be. I’m trying not to take a position on this. But at the end of the day, Ana Maria Salaras my Imagin Radio Mexican News in English had something to say. Her listeners were surveyed and they indicated (a majority of them), that if they were witnesses to a crime, they would not report it or get involved in any way: 1) They don’t trust the Police, 2) They don’t trust the Judges, 3) They don’t trust the Legal System. Ana Maria’s guest and she too, indicated that because of the lack of transparency and accountability in these areas, they can never expect people to cooperate with the law enforcement agencies.
REMEMBER in 2001, I WAS A WITNESS! In 2006, when they arrested me, they told me in Puerto Vallarta that the authorities in Guadalajara only wanted an augmentation of my first declaration as a witness. ALL LIES!
After I heard this widely held belief on the radio, I couldn’t sleep for hours trying to cry silently so as to not disturb the other 13 victims in my room with my despair. Transparency – means the work that the authorities do is done openly and not in secret, behind closed doors without accountability.
I still believe in my Public Defender Mario Lamas Guzman, however he left me with this final shot – He said, “What does it matter if it takes another 2-3 months, if the Judge acquits you in the end.”
TO ALL FRIENDS AND SUPPORTERS:
The past few months have been a period of hopeful waiting beginning with the assignment of the Magistrate Parra-Parra on April 22nd, the date I was sentenced and I appealed the sentence. Next, the visit to her by my sister Barbara and friend Lucy, in which they were told by the Magistrate that she was reviewing my case. LIE
Also, the US Consulate sent a letter during this time and was told by this magistrate that she was reviewing my case with “a good eye” meaning thoroughly. LIE
Then on October 3rd, the court notifier and court translator came to let me know that my case had been sent along with another 24 cases to the State of Guanajuato, the equivalent of sending a case from Washington State (Olympia) to Salem, Oregon. The reason I was told that it had been sent was because of an agreement between the Mexican states of Jalisco and Guanajuato to help each other out when they were overburdened with work. My Public Defender (attorney) Mario Lamas Guzman assured me that he thought this was a good thing and that it would speed up the process.
I really didn’t know what to think since I had already been told that the 1st magistrate was very hard working was not afraid to make decisions and couldn’t be pressured into doing something by the Ministerio Publico (the enemy).
Now I was being told that this new magistrate was removed from the politics in play here in Jalisco and that he would be left in peace by all parties so that he could accomplish his work quicker and without the bias we had seen with the 1st Judge. Also, I was told that 4-5 cases were coming back per week and the results and been very positive since they (the tribunal in Guanajuato) were using a new criteria.
In November, my sister Barbara and friend Lucy got in the car and went to Guanajuato (a six hour drive) to see the new Judge. They received a lukewarm reception and were granted a whole 15 minutes in which they learned that after 4 weeks in his possession my case was still on the bottom of his other cases to review (he had been told my case was difficult) and that he would do his best to review it before the end of the year. LIE
On New Year’s Eve I spoke to my sister and ex-husband telling them jokingly that the magistrate only had about 7 hours left to render a decision. At 7 PM I was called to the Locutoria – which is the Plexiglas room where attorneys and other visitors come to communicate or deliver notifications. I put on my putty colored prison dress and the adrenalin was pumping…Could I be going free on New Year’s Eve 2008? Nervous tears literally sprung from my eyes as a mixture of emotions, anticipation, hope and dread came upon me. Esmeralda and Leah waited by the cell block door as I walked out into the chilly night.
It turned out to be my dedicated lawyer, a Public Defender whose colleagues belittle him for working so hard and caring so much. His wife and family don’t understand why he works such long hours either. He came to tell me that now, the earliest we would hear would be January 15th, as that is about the time the magistrates actually begin working again. That night I told my attorney to explain to his wife and children, that only by the work of dedicated men like him would Justice ever have any hope of re-entering into this sick decaying system. And that they are suffering by his absence so that by his efforts and God’s protection, the rampant injustice that is a daily reality in this country will never make it to their doorstep.
Once again, I was appeased to wait till the 15th. However, I began to feel anxiety building on the 13th, 14th, 15th, etc. Finally I went to my psychologist for some Flower Drops she puts in water for depression and anxiety. That week I had an Asthma crisis which landed me into the clinic here early one morning. I was unable to breathe and my roommates covered me in blankets and took me to the clinic, where a Supervising guard asked them why they brought me there as there was no doctor. Upon hearing this, I willed myself to calm down. I was unable to speak. I’m not sure how much time passed when the Pediatrician arrived and injected me with something and gave me a nebulizer treatment. They were unable to locate my mask and nebulizer but I was grateful to be breathing again. Over the next four days after asking all personnel, I learned that not only my nebulizer and mask are gone, but the other three as well. (Many months previously a Rotarian from Puerto Vallarta had brought 5 new nebulizers and masks to donate to the prison with the provision that one set would be solely for my use.)
Once again I was sharing a dirty mask with all Asthma sufferers. Thank God I am becoming healthier every day.
My sister received an email from someone in Puerto Vallarta who is supposed to know what is going on with my case. This person told us months ago that I would be leaving. They didn’t know when…but that I would be leaving. Now this email stated by the end of January. You guessed it, January 31st has come and gone.
Last Friday Lucy was here and told me she’d talked to my attorney about my illness and growing anxiety. He had promised her that he would come to see me. Yesterday the US Consulate came for their 90 day visit (early they said) due to the email my sister sent regarding the Asthma Crisis and the missing donated nebulizers.
They brought me used: The New Yorker, The Economist, a Novel, 3 bras, 2 socks, 1 pair of Wilson tennis shoes, hotel and spa sized soaps, shampoo and conditioner.
I received the same party line of non-interference from the new American Citizen Services “suit” and we went through the same scenario. It brought to mind (appropriately due to the current dates FEBRUARY 2 IS GROUND HOG DAY in which Bill Murray (ME) continues to relive the same day over and over again. Only in my case it’s the endless revolving bureaucrats who represent the USA in Mexico. I relive these every 90 day meetings with new faces spouting the same worn out lines, like in “Ground Hog Day.” How can I cope?
In the afternoon I was called to the Locutorio and once again…This time it was my attorney wondering why I am so anxious and depressed. I said, “I’ve been waiting since April 22, 2008 for my Appeal. He said “yes”, but remember the first Magistrate didn’t do anything for four months! I said, “It doesn’t look like the second one is doing anything either.” I asked him if he really believed that this magistrate was going to do his job and clear me of these charges? He said, “I must believe it and you must believe it too.”
Barbara reassures me by telling me the more injustice that occurs; the greater the final outcome is going to be. I’m trying not to take a position on this. But at the end of the day, Ana Maria Salaras my Imagin Radio Mexican News in English had something to say. Her listeners were surveyed and they indicated (a majority of them), that if they were witnesses to a crime, they would not report it or get involved in any way: 1) They don’t trust the Police, 2) They don’t trust the Judges, 3) They don’t trust the Legal System. Ana Maria’s guest and she too, indicated that because of the lack of transparency and accountability in these areas, they can never expect people to cooperate with the law enforcement agencies.
REMEMBER in 2001, I WAS A WITNESS! In 2006, when they arrested me, they told me in Puerto Vallarta that the authorities in Guadalajara only wanted an augmentation of my first declaration as a witness. ALL LIES!
After I heard this widely held belief on the radio, I couldn’t sleep for hours trying to cry silently so as to not disturb the other 13 victims in my room with my despair. Transparency – means the work that the authorities do is done openly and not in secret, behind closed doors without accountability.
I still believe in my Public Defender Mario Lamas Guzman, however he left me with this final shot – He said, “What does it matter if it takes another 2-3 months, if the Judge acquits you in the end.”
Saturday, February 7, 2009
A post from Rebecca's sister
From the home of Barbara Moodhe
February 5, 2009
These notes are from this morning’s conversation with Rebecca including her Public Defender’s comments, the Consulate’s comments made on 2/4/09. I have also included Rebecca’s comments on these subjects.
BACKGROUND:
Rebecca was sentenced to 9 years on April 22, 2008.
I went to see the woman judge to make a family appeal on September 10, 2008. I took Lucie E. to translate. In spite of a good meeting for an hour, Rebecca’s case was later transferred to Juanajuato with 12 other cases from Jalisco, saying that this would speed up her case due to an enormous amount of cases being processed in Jalisco.
On November 11, 2008, Lucie E. my translator drove me to Juanajuato to see the Judge.
He gave us 15 minutes. I wasn’t able to communicate much to him as he said that he would take my notes and those that were in Spanish from the translator. He said that
He would try to have his decision in before the end of the year. He admitted that since he was told by the people giving over these cases to him that Rebecca’s was difficult, he had placed her at the bottom of that pile.
We didn’t get any word of a decision by the end of the year. Instead we were told by
Rebecca’s Public Defender that it would probably be made by the end of January.
1) Yesterday, 2/4/2009, her Public Defender came and told her it could be another 3 months.
Inferring that the judge was going on with other cases and getting to hers as he had time.
The only thing that makes this case difficult is the Disorganization of the Prosecuting Attorney, misinformation, and total fabrications.
Rebecca asks:
WHY IS THERE NO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE JUDGES?
WHY IS THEIR WORK DONE IN SECRECY? NO TRANSPARENCY?
WHY CAN’T HER PUBLIC DEFENDER TALK TO THE JUDGE?
WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THE JUDGES?
2) The new consulate person came and introduced herself as Janie Friedline. She was accompanied by Anna Kling. They spoke the same line of “know nothing” that all of the others have done over the past 3 years.
When Rebecca asked about the aforementioned information from her Public Defender, she was told that she had to go through her attorney and that he had to deal with these problems, that these were not anything the consulate could deal with. The brought her used tennis shoes, used bras, old magazines.
Janie didn’t give her a phone number to call or an email.
Rebecca finally got the name of the Consul General Edward Romatowski.
Rebecca told her about the 5 – 7 missing nebulizers. They said that they would check into this and into the medical procedures.
In light of the fact that it is reported daily in the newspapers that witnesses won’t come forward in Mexico because of the corruption in the legal system, Rebecca relates to her own experience when she was told to be a witness in 2002 in Puerto Vallarta. She was not told that she was being asked questions that would be later twisted into a “confession”. It was taken in Spanish which Rebecca did not speak
Rebecca mentioned that Carey Waage’s confession in the United States, in English, was read to him and then he was asked if he understood that he was making a confession.
Rebecca was never asked if she was giving a confession. She was solely brought in as a witness.
When they took her against her will to Puente Grande, Feb. 13, 2006, the next day she was told she was giving evidence as a witness. She was not told she was giving a confession. Again the information she tried to give was taken in Spanish, (no translator both times) and it was twisted against her and labeled a confession.
Our Consulate says that they can only watch to see that she gets “due process”. Does this sound like DUE PROCESS? WE THINK NOT!!!
WE SEEK HELP AND ADVICE FROM ANYONE WHO CAN HELP REBECCA.
SURELY, THE CONSULATE WILL NOT LIFT A FINGER; THE EMBASSY HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING. THE PRESS ISN’T INTERESTED IN HER PLIGHT.
WHERE IS JUSTICE?
Barbara Moodhe
February 5, 2009
These notes are from this morning’s conversation with Rebecca including her Public Defender’s comments, the Consulate’s comments made on 2/4/09. I have also included Rebecca’s comments on these subjects.
BACKGROUND:
Rebecca was sentenced to 9 years on April 22, 2008.
I went to see the woman judge to make a family appeal on September 10, 2008. I took Lucie E. to translate. In spite of a good meeting for an hour, Rebecca’s case was later transferred to Juanajuato with 12 other cases from Jalisco, saying that this would speed up her case due to an enormous amount of cases being processed in Jalisco.
On November 11, 2008, Lucie E. my translator drove me to Juanajuato to see the Judge.
He gave us 15 minutes. I wasn’t able to communicate much to him as he said that he would take my notes and those that were in Spanish from the translator. He said that
He would try to have his decision in before the end of the year. He admitted that since he was told by the people giving over these cases to him that Rebecca’s was difficult, he had placed her at the bottom of that pile.
We didn’t get any word of a decision by the end of the year. Instead we were told by
Rebecca’s Public Defender that it would probably be made by the end of January.
1) Yesterday, 2/4/2009, her Public Defender came and told her it could be another 3 months.
Inferring that the judge was going on with other cases and getting to hers as he had time.
The only thing that makes this case difficult is the Disorganization of the Prosecuting Attorney, misinformation, and total fabrications.
Rebecca asks:
WHY IS THERE NO ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE JUDGES?
WHY IS THEIR WORK DONE IN SECRECY? NO TRANSPARENCY?
WHY CAN’T HER PUBLIC DEFENDER TALK TO THE JUDGE?
WHO IS IN CHARGE OF THE JUDGES?
2) The new consulate person came and introduced herself as Janie Friedline. She was accompanied by Anna Kling. They spoke the same line of “know nothing” that all of the others have done over the past 3 years.
When Rebecca asked about the aforementioned information from her Public Defender, she was told that she had to go through her attorney and that he had to deal with these problems, that these were not anything the consulate could deal with. The brought her used tennis shoes, used bras, old magazines.
Janie didn’t give her a phone number to call or an email.
Rebecca finally got the name of the Consul General Edward Romatowski.
Rebecca told her about the 5 – 7 missing nebulizers. They said that they would check into this and into the medical procedures.
In light of the fact that it is reported daily in the newspapers that witnesses won’t come forward in Mexico because of the corruption in the legal system, Rebecca relates to her own experience when she was told to be a witness in 2002 in Puerto Vallarta. She was not told that she was being asked questions that would be later twisted into a “confession”. It was taken in Spanish which Rebecca did not speak
Rebecca mentioned that Carey Waage’s confession in the United States, in English, was read to him and then he was asked if he understood that he was making a confession.
Rebecca was never asked if she was giving a confession. She was solely brought in as a witness.
When they took her against her will to Puente Grande, Feb. 13, 2006, the next day she was told she was giving evidence as a witness. She was not told she was giving a confession. Again the information she tried to give was taken in Spanish, (no translator both times) and it was twisted against her and labeled a confession.
Our Consulate says that they can only watch to see that she gets “due process”. Does this sound like DUE PROCESS? WE THINK NOT!!!
WE SEEK HELP AND ADVICE FROM ANYONE WHO CAN HELP REBECCA.
SURELY, THE CONSULATE WILL NOT LIFT A FINGER; THE EMBASSY HAS NEVER DONE ANYTHING. THE PRESS ISN’T INTERESTED IN HER PLIGHT.
WHERE IS JUSTICE?
Barbara Moodhe
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